The Michael Jackson Tapes

by Shmuley Boteach

  MJ: We listen, we watch, we learn. We open our hearts and we open our minds, open our souls. Yes, we can learn but you have to realize that. . .

  SB: Adults live with more fear than children.

  MJ: Absolutely. . . nervous breakdowns. And they have created their own circumstances in a lot of ways. To worry about something until it destroys your health. If there is something they want very badly, kids will keep on saying it until they get it because they have no other way of getting it. Until you give in, which is really sweet, it’s adorable. I always say to them, “If that’s the most important thing for you to worry about in life then you are a lucky person. If that’s your biggest issue then you are lucky.” You realize in the future. . . for them it’s important at the time, which is sweet. It can be the simplest little thing, too. Sweet.

  SB: So, the point I was trying to make was that on the one hand there are things that frighten you [Michael had told me about his fear of dogs], and they are classic childhood fears. And, by the way your love of fear is very similar to that of Adam and Eve. They love danger, you know. God said to them “there is this fruit and it’s very dangerous,” and that’s when they want to eat it. On the one hand, you’re afraid of nasty dogs.

  MJ: Yeah, I don’t like that kind of thing. That frightens me. Or if you cornered a mother cougar among her babies. . . I don’t know if they call them cubs or what. . . and she’s cornered and she’s very territorial, you don’t go there. You don’t cross that line. I don’t understand when people take the gun and they shoot the mother. . . and the baby elephants they do the same dance every time. They let off this screech and they turn in circles of confusion and the mother’s lying there dead, they spin in circles like they’re going crazy. And I don’t understand how man can do that. That hurts me so much. It’s so sad. SB: Did you do safaris when you were in Africa?

  MJ: Yeah, yeah.

  SB: You got close to some of the dangerous animals?

  MJ: Yeah.

  SB: And you weren’t afraid. . . ?

  MJ: No. No I love safaris. I love them so much.

  SB: So you see the contradiction of this fear. You’re afraid of things like spiders, things that children would be afraid of, but you’re not afraid of a lion.

  MJ: No, no. I’m fascinated by it.

  SB: I mean, in Neverland I saw you get within like a foot of a cobra. Remember that?

  MJ: Yeah, yeah. And the rattlesnakes. I mean, we stroked the rattlesnakes. And they’re very, highly, highly. . . I mean, they could kill you.

  SB: And you’re not afraid of anything like that?

  MJ: I’m fascinated by things that are dangerous to men and to just look at a shark. Why are we so fascinated by sharks? Because they can kill you. And you yell “Shark!” and everybody goes “where? What? Who?” You know, you say, “barracuda” and nobody cares, you say, “shrimp.” It’s about the danger and the legend of it, it’s about the folklore of it. And I love all that. . . I think I like what PT Barnum liked about it. You know, things that interest people, I love that kinda. . . that’s what I love about magic, and Howard Hughes. I love all that.

  SB: What are your biggest fears though? I know you’re afraid of mean people. You don’t like mean people.

  MJ: I don’t like big, mean, tall guys that are like aggressive. And that’s what turned me off about you know who. That hurt me when he asked me, I didn’t like it at all. How could a human being have that in him to be that harsh? If that’s how he felt, keep it to himself, you don’t say it.

  SB: You don’t like tall, angry, aggressive men. . . ?

  MJ: No. In my life, they’ve been mean. Even though there have been some gentle giants. The tall ones have been turned off of me. SB: But your bodyguards are tall. . .

  MJ: They are tall. . .

  SB: But they’re all nice. . .

  MJ: I make sure they’re nice. They have to be gentlemen. And they all know, if a child comes up, you don’t turn the child away. If a child comes up and asks for an autograph, you roll out the red carpet of courtesy to ’em. They all know that. Very important. I mean, Brando won’t sign autographs for anyone unless they’re children. Unless they’re a little kid, he don’t sign. I think that’s so sweet, you know? SB: What other fears do you have?

  MJ: What other fears? Um. . . .

  SB: Dogs. I don’t understand why children have certain fears. The other night we put on a DVD for kids and there was a monster and Baba started screaming and crying and she ran out of the room and she always pushes her bed time, but she said, “I want to go to bed.” And she went to sleep. She just hated it.

  MJ: What show was it?

  SB: I think it was Men in Black or something.

  MJ: Ohhh. On DVD? But the other kids were fine with it? They knew it was movie stuff and not real?

  SB: Yeah. I don’t really let them see stuff like that but they got it and I was watching it with them, so. . . Baba saw the first guy and. . .

  MJ: Yeah, it’s not for Baba. It’s not for her. Prince and Paris love Jurassic Park, even though there can be violence and guns. But I want him to see great movies if they’re great. Not too many but great, great art.

  Life in a Fishbowl

  Shmuley Boteach: What about celebrity? What about the negative things associated with celebrity? What are the negatives of celebrity? What do you dislike about being as famous as you are?

  Michael Jackson: I dislike when you become an icon, being a celebrity and then becoming an icon, an international phenomenon which has happened to me—and I am not ashamed to say it—and the jealousy that is involved. I have seen some serious jealousy.

  SB: Do you feel it around some other celebrities, and it is palpable, or do you feel it from a distance?

  MJ: I have seen it but once they meet me face to face they always, always change. They see I am nothing like that guy. I have had people really start to cry in front of me after meeting me. There have been fans, and there are two kinds of fans. There is the fan who goes, “Oh my God! Oh my God! Oh my God!” And they faint and you have to hold them. Then there’s the other fan, who say an abrupt, “Hi.” I go “Hi, nice to meet you. What’s your name?” They give you their name, but they have got an attitude. I am just as simple and warm with them and then I see them start to cry. I say, “Why are you crying?” And they say, “Because I didn’t think you would be this nice.” And they go away a different person. I go,

  “Well, what did you think I was like?” and they’d go, “I thought you would be stuck up and arrogant.” I say, “Please never judge a person. I am nothing like that.” They have been so impressed. I’m sure they go away loving you tenfold, a thousand times more. Nothing beats kindness and love I think. Just simplicity.

  SB: Have you always been able to melt a hard heart with kindness and love?

  MJ: Yes.

  SB: What about jealousy from other stars. Is there a lot of jealousy in your profession?

  MJ: Absolutely. They admire you and know you are wonderful and great because they are jealous, because they wish they were in your shoes. And “M” is one of them. Madonna is one of them. She is jealous. She is a girl, a woman and I think that’s what bothers her. I think women don’t scream for other women. Men are too cool to scream for women. I get the fainting and adulation and she doesn’t.

  SB: Does jealousy have no role? Were you never jealous of someone in your career who made you work harder?

  MJ: Never jealous. Admiration, complete admiration.

  SB: So admiration can bring even greater goals than jealousy because it is positive and not negative. So you would look at Fred Astaire and say, “I want to be able to do that.”

  MJ: Yes, absolutely. Complete inspiration, never jealousy. It’s wrong, but people are like that aren’t they? It’s true? Can’t people look at somebody great and get totally jealous of them?

  SB: Sure, but you have never felt that?

  MJ: I don’t understand a person who could do that.

  Here again Michael bet
rays an unfortunate lack of self-knowledge. There were plenty of people who eclipsed Michael of whom he was jealous, as we all might be. Elvis was someone whom he certainly admired, but he also felt competitive with him. However, he was understandably never jealous of people such as Fred Astaire because they were never his competitors.

  Indeed, Judaism says that jealousy can be a good thing, as I have explained in several of my books, most notably Kosher Adultery: Seduce and Sin with Your Spouse. Jealousy is the righteous desire to safeguard that which is legitimately yours. It is envy which is destructive. And more than just being a play on words, envy is the unrighteous lust after that which legitimately belongs to someone else. God help husbands and wives who are not somewhat possessive of each other. I have seen plenty of those marriages and they usually betray a lack of desire.

  SB: For you it has always been inspiration? You have been in awe and wonder of those with great talent?

  MJ: Can a person become jealous of God?

  SB: Sure. Look at Stalin and Hitler. They tried to be God. They wanted to decide life and death.

  MJ: Wow.

  SB: Because they lose the sense of awe and wonder. God doesn’t impress them. He threatens them. They want to be all-powerful, so they can’t submit to God’s authority. They become enemies of God. [Aside from jealousy] what other things do you dislike about celebrity?

  MJ: Being famous.

  SB: Do you dislike when you can’t walk down the street?

  MJ: No, I enjoy when people recognize me and they are nice and say, “Hi,” and there is a crowd or something.

  SB: When I was with you in that van, and we had left your hotel, Michael, twice we saw a young black kid on a bicycle follow us for about four to five miles on the most treacherous streets in New York City, just to get your autograph. And you stopped the car and made sure he got his autograph. We saw three other kids who, after the dinner with President Clinton, chased us for about a mile on foot until you said to the driver, “Stop.” And you gave them your autograph. So you see people do that?

  MJ: Oh God, Shmuley, hundreds of them sometimes. It is a trillion times worse than what you have seen. They start breaking things and it turns into a mob scene.

  I was with Michael as we exited Carnegie Hall after our presentation on Valentine’s Day, 2001. I can vouch for the fact that he was nearly torn limb from limb.

  SB: Do you enjoy when people recognize you as long as they are nice?

  MJ: I think our job as celebrities, I think anybody who has been blessed by God with any sort of talent—be it the sculptor, the writer, the painter, the singer of songs, to the dancer—is to bring some sense of escapism and enjoyment to the masses of people. That’s our job, to bring joy.

  SB: Anything else you hate about celebrity? Obviously, you hate the tabloid stories as well?

  MJ: Hate them. I hate the jerks for doing that sort of thing. I think racism, jealousy, and just hate—evil—are part of it. They vent out their frustration on people who are trying to do good and it is just sad. If anyone believes it, they are like crazy. I mean I wish there was a way to totally get rid of those kinds of things.

  Ambition and Patience, Jealousy and Forgiveness, Anger at the Press

  Shmuley Boteach: I see how people will do anything to have a piece of you. They want to ride your coattails to fame. They want to be seen with you, photographed with you. But there are people who have gotten close to you who have harmed you, who have hurt you, who have sued you. Have you got any stories where they come to you and say, “I am really sorry, I used you. I am really sorry?” Do you have any stories about forgiveness?

  Michael Jackson: I wish. I wish people were that sweet to admit to their own wrongdoing.

  Here is Michael playing his favorite role of victim. Of course, I was silly enough back then to believe that Michael, for the most part, was a victim. I did not realize that he had broken many contracts, alienated many of the people he worked with, abandoned people who had been devoted to him, and earned a reputation as not being the most ethical person to do business with.

  SB: Not one. Never? No one ever came to you and said, “Sorry Michael, but at that party the other night I claimed to know you better that I really did. I used your name to get ahead”? Have you heard stories like that, where someone has said, “Oh yes I spoke to this guy. He says he knows you so well. He says he’s your best friend. And you have never even heard of the guy?”

  MJ: I have that all the time. Sometimes not to break their heart I agree like I know who they are talking about, because I don’t want to embarrass the person.

  SB: So you’ll say, “Yeah, yeah. I know who you are talking about?” MJ: [When really I am thinking is] I don’t know who the heck you are talking about.

  SB: No one who has ever hurt you has come and asked for forgiveness? There wasn’t a reporter who ever came and said, “I wrote this stuff. I am sorry”? I said to the journalist from that newspaper, “How could you write that President Clinton [at the Angel Ball] was publicly distancing himself from Michael when he mentioned him three times in his speech?” I repeated the speech references to him and he actually said, “I’m sorry, I was given the wrong information.” He was a decent guy. He said, “I will correct it tomorrow.” But have you never had to forgive anyone in your life, Michael? Have you ever forgiven anyone without them asking? Have you forgiven the people who have hurt you?

  MJ: To their face?

  SB: In your heart.

  MJ: Of course.

  SB: You have seen someone being mean and you have forgiven them anyway.

  MJ: Yes, because I was taught to be Biblical: “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” And you do it.

  SB: Do you think you are a better person for it?

  MJ: Yeah.

  SB: So you have no anger in your heart at anyone today?

  MJ: I have anger for the press. I am very bitter, mad and angry with them and I am angry at those who deliberately inflict pain upon a child to hurt them. The stories about what they are doing in the wars to the kids. I always try and figure out a way to try and do something about that.

  SB: What about forgiveness? There are people who have hurt you. Children do fight, but they don’t bear grudges. Can you forgive people with your whole heart, people who have hurt you?

  MJ: Yes.

  SB: Even I didn’t realize this. But when I mentioned Roseanne Barr to you, because I do her television show often as a guest, I later saw that she had made a negative comment about you for no apparent reason.

  MJ: She has been mean with me. That was why I was hesitant.

  Roseanne is a friend of mine and I served as her daughters’ real-life matchmaker on her syndicated talk show. Roseanne, who is Jewish, wanted her daughters to marry Jewish husbands. Since she is a very devoted mother, I was looking to get her involved in our child prioritization initiative. When I mentioned it to Michael, he went silent. It was a mark of his gentlemanliness that he did not badmouth my friend to me. Later someone shared with me the reason for Michael’s hesitation because apparently Roseanne once made a negative comment about Michael. But then, I know Roseanne and it could be she made the comment facetiously.

  SB: You could tell me that.

  MJ: I didn’t maliciously attack her.

  SB: I saw that. Can you forgive them? There is no malice in their heart.

  MJ: You know, “They know not what they do.” Words of Jesus. They don’t even know me. It has no foundation what they are doing. How can they say it. . . they don’t even know me? Do you believe something you have read?

  SB: So it is total forgiveness?

  MJ: Yes, because Roseanne came to me later on, like a puppy backstage, praising, feeling bad about all of that.

  SB: Have you got other examples?

  MJ: Madonna has never apologized. She is jealous.

  SB: She wants to be the biggest star in the world?

  MJ: Yes, she is jealous.

  SB: You can’t understand that. You would say, “W
hat are you jealous for? You do your thing. I do my thing. . . .”

  MJ: But at the same time she will come to my concert and cry. She comes there and tears rolling down her face for the song and the presentation of the song. There are some good qualities in her.

  SB: There are good qualities in her. But you’re saying she allows her jealousy to mask them at times. But if someone does that, they don’t even have to ask for forgiveness because you will just forgive them?

  MJ: Yes.

  SB: I saw that you made an overture to Jay Leno. You went to a charity benefit with Elizabeth Taylor and you were wearing a red suit. MJ: Brown suit.

  SB: So you saw Jay Leno and. . . ?

  MJ: He was sitting at my table with President Ford, Sylvester Stallone, Elizabeth Taylor, Sydney Poitier. When he came to sit down I just walked over to him and started like playfully choking him [because he always makes negative jokes about Michael] and he was like, “Urgghh. Urrrggghh.” And then Elizabeth said, “Have you been saying mean things about Michael?” And he went, “Huh?” Later on in the evening he shook my hand with a warm expression in his eyes and the next day he sends a letter to the office saying, “Michael said he would come on the show. Can you set it up so that we can have him on the show?” I never said that. So I don’t know how to take it from here. But instead of taking him to one side and saying something nasty back to him, I wouldn’t do that. I couldn’t help doing what I did to him [Laughs].

  SB: That’s cute. Everyone saw?

  MJ: Yeah, they saw it. He has a big neck too. I couldn’t get my hands round.

  SB: What is it about Elizabeth Taylor that is so endearing to you? She is like your closest friend for many years. What is it about her, in the context of these childlike qualities?

  MJ: We are both from the same place. . . .

  SB: She’s loyal, right.

  MJ: She’s loyal. We are from the same place. She can relate to the world I have come from. She’s curious. You just look in her eyes and you know. It is like speaking telepathically. You can feel it, it’s true, without saying a word and I felt that seeing her the very first time. It’s like that with Shirley Temple [Black]. We are from the same world.