Through a Mother's Eyes

by Cary Allen Stone

  JULIE: Please don’t compare the two abortions to what happened with Charley. The abortions were a result of Chuck’s selfishness and whatever other problems plagued him, and my fear of him. They were not acceptable then, and they aren’t now. What happened with Charley can never be construed as acceptable. I should have had a safe place to leave my son with his father. I do not believe children should hurt and be abused, and made to suffer. It’s not that I do consider them as ending a life, I just don’t. I consider them very different than what Charley... The abortions I had were for no good reason. There was no reason for them at all. It was, um, Chuck was very adamant and no, I just, I consider them different than I did with Charley.

  STONE: What was your original attraction to Chuck?

  JULIE: Well first of all, I had just come from a marriage with David. David was very much, um, he was very, he was young, you know, and irresponsible. He was very much a momma’s boy, and very passive, much more passive than even I was. So when I met Chuck, Chuck was like, um, he was just extremely intelligent, um, very military bearing about him, very secure.

  STONE: Was he in actual combat?

  JULIE: Yes, um, he never discussed it much. Occasionally, he’d make a couple of references, um, to some things that happened, but rarely did he want to talk about it, or discuss it. He was also very non-religious at the time, very atheist, which I believe was a result of Vietnam.

  STONE: The “house inspections” were military-like?

  JULIE: Yes, everything, um, he has... I think he was diagnosed with this obsessive-compulsive disorder. There is a long list of habits that he has. When I sat and thought about them all some of them are really weird. Every thing’s numbered; he does everything a certain number of times. Everything, I mean everything, sits in a certain place, can’t be moved.

  STONE: When did the domestic violence begin?

  JULIE: It didn’t start until, um, it didn’t start until shortly after we were married.

  STONE: Were there any clues before you were married?

  JULIE: Well, you know, the truth is, while we dated from ’86 to’90, Chuck traveled so much with work that really he was gone a lot. I mean, maybe I saw him once a week. Sometimes, I’d go for weeks and not see him at all because he was always out of town. So, in, you know, reflecting back I realize how little time I really spent with him during those four years that we dated. I never lived with him. He didn’t live with me.

  STONE: You said that he threatened you.

  JULIE: He, um, he said it in, he used to make references, uh, that’s the right word or not, kind of in a joking way. I know Chuck well enough to know that no, he really wasn’t joking. It was kind of like, “if I wanted to do that, I can do that––nobody would ever find you. You’d be alligator food.” He’d say stuff like that. And we did live on a lake that was in a chain of several uninhabited

  lakes out there, and gators everywhere. And it was always like, going out on the boat with him always creeped me out. Because I, it, it just did. Because he was, I don’t know, I just; you never knew exactly what he was thinking. And I just, I really believed he was capable of making happen anything that he wanted to make happen... He’d say things like that. Then he’d laugh and, and I’d laugh with him like he was joking. But then he’d look at me... It would, it, he did, he creeped me out.

  STONE: You indicated before that Chuck had women friends?

  JULIE: No, um, my husband liked, he never had an ongoing relationship with somebody else. Well, you’re familiar with like Orange Blossom Trail? Yeah, he frequented the Trail... They were just whatever happened to be there. I did not, I wasn’t aware of that for a very long time. They would call the house once in a while, that’s how I knew it wasn’t, you know, a relationship-type thing. Besides, they were real young they sounded like kids. Not kids, I don’t mean kids. But, you know what I meant––teenagers, young girls––say silly things, you know.

  [Orange Blossom Trail is a heavily traveled, main road in Orlando. It is also the location of the majority of adult businesses in the city, and prostitution.]

  STONE: How did that make you feel?

  JULIE: I always have had like a lot of pride so any time they called, you know, they’d make some silly comment, and I’d kind of laugh with them and say “Okay bye, you know, talk to you later.” I would never let it show, you know, to them that it bothered me. It bothered me badly, couldn’t stand it. We had a lot of arguments over it. He always told me I was crazy, I mean, he told me I was crazy after I had just gotten a phone call from a girl, you know... He told me I was crazy, or he’d tell me I was lying. I mean it was like.... His games were all like “head games.” It was ridiculous.

  STONE: For the record, did you and Chuck experience a satisfactory sex life?

  JULIE: Very definitely and that probably is what kept us together as long as we were together.

  STONE: So he sought out the intrigue and not the person?

  JULIE: I think it’s the slipping and sliding around that, you know, some people kind of enjoy that.

  STONE: Would you describe the physical abuse from Chuck?

  JULIE: I had to, uh, not work on several occasions when I was real swelled up. And he would just like, he would go into frenzy, but he’s a very, very big man. I mean fists, I mean, like they’re huge. He’s just real intimidating. He has a very deep, deep voice.

  STONE: What happened with the Hydrocodone tabs on the television?

  JULIE: Um, he had found a prescription in my purse and, um, the prescription was not mine. It had an alias name on it, so he knew I was using the Hydrocodone.

  STONE: Doris Murata?

  JULIE: Yeah, but, you know, the crazier the names the less they question it. Yeah, he found the prescription and knew I was using again. Charlie was very, very young. He was leaving, it was a weekend, and he was leaving to go into work for the day. And he took the prescription. And I was very worried because here I was going to be left with Charlie, and I was already getting a little bit sick. I needed to take the medication. And, um, he wouldn’t let me have it. And wouldn’t leave me the keys to a car, and no money to go get any. And he was leaving for the whole day. So, he put the prescription up on top the television and counted the number of pills in there. And told me that when he got home that I better be there when he gets home, and all of those tablets better be there when he gets home.

  STONE: Was this an attempt to cure you?

  JULIE: It was not an attempt to cure me because he, he was knowledgeable enough as far as alcoholism and stuff like that. He knows that if he was physically ill, you know, and needing a drink, that me putting a drink in front of him saying “don’t touch it” is not going to cure him, or make him any better. That was not an attempt to cure me. It was a, it was punitive.

  But I did exactly what any other, um, drug addict would have done. I took all the medication out and replaced it with a medication that looked similar. Because, and I was, I was very, very, very sick and, um, this kind of sick is real bad, you know, you’re doubled over with abdominal pains, and sweats, fever, and, um, vomiting. It’s very bad. And I had Charlie, and I was going to be left the whole day. So I took that medication and, um, needless to say, he didn’t, he didn’t realize it I guess. He never looked at the tablets for a while; he didn’t when he came home. But that got me through that day.

  STONE: Please retell the knife incident.

  JULIE: Well, when I looked at the report at first I thought it said “butcher knife” and then I thought, “I don’t know what he’s talking about.” And then, when I confronted him with it I said, “what are you talking about?” He said, “well, I didn’t write anything about a butcher knife.” And I said, “Well it’s some kind of knife!” And he said, “Ah, well, I said kitchen knife.” And I said, “that, that was nuts, ok, that never happened!” That was the night that, um, Charlie and I were in the kitchen. We were making sandwiches, peanut butter sandwiches. And, um, Chuck was in there. He had on a pair of shorts and his work shir
t. And he came in and he had been in a bad mood all evening. And he grabbed me by my shirt and when I flipped around like this [demonstrates a turning motion] peanut butter went all over his shirt.

  And that was like the end of it. I went back and started making the sandwiches. And, um, we just weren’t talking. About a half an hour later, the police show up. And now, by this time, they had already been called like repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly. So they knew something, something wasn’t right. Here’s this great big man complaining about domestic violence constantly. He doesn’t have a mark on him. The wife never knows what the hell he’s talking about. What’s wrong here? So, each time they always made him leave. Well, the police came, and they came in the kitchen. And I was still standing in there, you know, and I was cleaning up the dishes after Charlie and I had eaten. Ashley was there too, I believe. And, um, he said, “we just got a call complaining of domestic violence––you attacked your husband with a knife!” And I busted out laughing.

  I don’t know if he had been drinking that night or not. I don’t really remember. And the truth is I really don’t think that he was. He may have had a couple beers. It was after work. He didn’t drink much during the week. It was mostly a weekend thing. So I don’t know if he had had too much to drink or not, I don’t remember. But any way, I busted out laughing. And I told the police, I said, “I don’t know what you’re talking about as far as that goes.” And they ended up––they made him leave. And I told the police before they walked out, I said, “let me add, do you know what he cares about? One if it had been real domestic violence or anything had been going on, I would have tried to get to the phone too. I would have called. But all he cares about is who makes that first call to the police.” And I walked outside with the police officers. And he turned around and he said, the officer said, “You’re going to have to leave for the night.” And he [Chuck] said, “Well, I want this documented! It is documented that I called isn’t it? I called first.” Like that and I just laughed because I had not had a drink, that night and the police were like...

  That was the last time they came to the house. They were over it. But he also put that “knife incident” in his... Remember the restraining order? It was, it was a horrible injunction and statement that he wrote. And, um, what really floored me and, uh, what I told Mark [O’Mara] was, “It’s amazing that he can make all of these allegations about me, but kicked Charlie and me out together. I mean, obviously, if I’m, you know, taking doses of Methadone on top of doses of Methadone, attacking people with knives and stuff, he could have had Charlie, you know, paying no child support––no nothing! And, uh, he kicked Charlie and I out. It was absolutely––they were lies. It was, it was terrible. And he did go in and admit that to the judge, and wrote a letter to the judge.

  But I never moved back in with him after that. That was the last time I lived with him, that was it for me. He scared me with that. And David got a hold of that and used that in an emergency hearing for child custody. So, he did his damage with that. And I never went back after that. I knew after the injunction, even with Chuck’s retraction, that if I ever went back, I would lose Ashley. David did get a hold of it and used it in an emergency hearing to get Ashley. Chuck refused to pay for an attorney for me, so I represented myself and maintained custody of Ashley. David was furious.

  STONE: So with all of the abuse, why didn’t you leave?

  JULIE: I actually finally did, yes, I left. I left many times. Yes, I left many times, and went back. He, you know, the typical scenario, promises “everything will be better. We’ll do this. We’ll do this. We’ll go to counseling. We’ll make this work.” Nothing ever happened.

  STONE: The Hydrocodone, did you ever use it for the physical pain from the abuse?

  JULIE: Yes, I have... Sometimes. Helped me get to work.

  STONE: According to Chuck’s deposition, he asked you to reconcile three weeks before November 1996, and to his surprise, you agreed.

  JULIE: Yes, I did. But the reason why I agreed was, you see, I always believed, a lot of the problems that I had, you know, um, I had a lot of problems with my mother. She was always interfering, very controlling. And I was always pulled between what my mom and dad wanted me to do, and what Chuck wanted me to do. So Chuck, you know had been working very, very hard and, um, got this great job offer in Troy, Alabama. And to me it was your typical geographical cure! We’re going to pick up. We’re going to move over here. We’re going to start a brand new life. Maybe everything can be ok. We’ll be away from mom and dad, away from David, away from all these external things that have happened. So, I said yes, did not dare tell my parents that I had said yes.

  But see Chuck came back then, and he said, he said let’s go, uh, for the weekend and look for a house, um, closer in to Orlando. And that’s when all the red flags went up. He’s tricking me, again. He is not going to Troy. He’s not, um; he’s not going to follow through. Once again, he’s promising me all of these things to get me to come back to him. And he’s going to stick me in some house right here in Orlando. He’s just buying time––never, no dice!

  STONE: In your letter that November night, you said that you “knew things” that no one else knew about Chuck… You did not want to elaborate in the last interview. Do you still feel that way?

  JULIE: Right. No. There’s, there’s a couple things that I, I just can’t do. I can’t, I can’t, I can’t do it to him. I can’t do it. I won’t. I just can’t do it. No, I accept him the way he is, you know, I, I mean...I do. That’s just him, you know, he’s just different. I think he’s just the result of everything that’s happened to him throughout his lifetime. I think I always believe there is reasons, there’s reasons for all of that.

  STONE: Was there sexual abuse toward you by Chuck?

  JULIE: No. Surprisingly, with the kind of person that he is. And none of the investigators believed me when I said no, but that’s true, absolutely not.

  STONE: Why did you agree to talk with me? And what do you hope to gain from this?

  JULIE: I have had other people write to me and request interviews. And I’ve never responded to any of them. I mean never told them “no,” just no response at all. I guess the first thing was you are the only one person that, outside of my family, that knew me at all that has contacted me in here. I got a real good feeling from your letter. And maybe I’m way off base, and maybe this guy was going to run with this thing, and do all kinds of nutty things with it, but I just don’t, I don’t believe that. I usually try at least, now, I go with my gut feeling and, um, I said that’s not my gut. I have a good feeling and I think that he wants to do something positive. And if anything at all positive can come from this, this horrible tragedy, you know, if it can help one person, or one child, then, then it’s all worth it.

  STONE: I have a unique dedication to this project.

  JULIE: I want you to know that if you completely mess it up, and make a travesty of it, that would be my mortal blow. That will do it for me. I couldn’t, no. But after your last visit, I said no, not from him.

  JULIE: I’m surprised you wanted to do it.

  STONE: I felt that I should have spoken to you before it happened. It’s not guilt but it’s definitely my regret. Normally, if I see someone struggling I at least ask but in this case, time got in my way. But it has always stuck in my mind that I didn’t approach you then to ask what’s wrong? And then I said if I could have asked then who else could have? And I got lost in that circle. Also, this happened in my neighborhood. I know you. We talked two days before this happened and then I saw you on the news in handcuffs.

  JULIE: It was like once this happened it was over for me I had nothing to hide, you know, there’s nothing to hide. I mean, I just, there’s no reason for me to be evasive or to not tell everything. When I decided that I wanted to try and do this I told myself then, “you have to tell everything. You have to lay it on the line exactly how it was no matter how many stupid mistakes I made, and everything. I couldn’t brush over any
thing. I needed to do it right or I wasn’t going to do it at all.

  STONE: I’m convinced that you loved Charlie. I’m also concerned that once you’ve seen Ashley face-to-face, and after you’ve cleansed your soul with me, you may decide to end your life.

  JULIE: But I have Ashley to consider. Now, if I, and I’ll be honest with you, if it weren’t for Ashley, and we weren’t doing this, yes, I would probably do that. I’d probably do this and say, “it’s out, you know, it’s over for me. But––

  STONE: I don’t want you to do that to me.

  JULIE: I would never do anything to myself prior to knowing Ashley was through school and would be okay. It’s important for me to see her and talk to her. And there is also that fear that since I committed this horrible sin, and although God understands, He didn’t want me to die with Charley. And perhaps, if I take another life (mine) He wouldn’t forgive me for it and not let me be with Charley as a punishment. And if I found out tomorrow that I would never be with Charley, I would wait until I made things right with Ashley... then do it. I’ve often thought “even if there is no place for me to be with Charley in an afterlife, at least I know I have a place beside him...at the cemetery.” Besides, if I checked out now it would make David and his family too damn happy, and they would not hesitate to say to Ashley, “See, your mother really doesn’t care about you.” I can’t let that happen! I have a lot that I need to get done with my daughter any way. I need to be with her. I need to spend some time with her.